Lost Thunderbirds.

[john61]

I have recently dedicated over a year to watching every Anderson series I have from Supercar to Space Priecinct in the order it was broadcast. I watched Stingray. Thunderbirds. Captain Scarlet Joe 90, and UFO twice. Once in black and white on an old shape tv to try to re capture the way I originally saw them, and once in colour on my LCD tv.
I have many things to talk about regarding this. But in this post I want to concentrate on Thunderbirds.
After watching it this time round. I find myself, for the first time ever, left with a very profound sense of unfinished business. I feel like the second series episodes that should have been made after episode six are lost episodes. Almost stolen episodes. For the first time ever I feel cheated, and can vividly imagine possible story lines that might have been. I can see an episode where Scot or Virgil can't carry out a mission for some reason, so Jeff steps in and takes their place, showing that the old man's still got it. An episode where Lady P has to assume control of International rescue, and Parker ends up flying TB1 or 2 (Lots of humor in this episode) An episode where The Hood ends up on Tracy Island, and possibly the whole thing coming to an end in a way that means International Rescue no longer has to remain a secret organisation. All possible story ideas that I can imagine might have appeared as episodes if series two wasn't cancelled after only six episodes. I really have no idea why it's taken all these years for me to see Thunderbirds that way, but it's a bit odd. I loved watching it as I always have since I first saw it when it was originally made when I was all of five. But this time I've been left feeling like there should have been more. Specifically the rest of series two.
Lew Grade you must have had a funny turn the day you told Gerry no more Thunderbirds.

[Steve Gerard]

Lew Grade cut THUNDERBIRDS short as he did again after SPACE:1999 finished Season 2 and was renewed for a Season 3.:( Lew Grade decided to cancel the third season to use the budget promote movies he was releasing like 'Raise The Titanic'.

[john61]

Apart from that, other things were noticed for the first time. The charm, connected entirely to the dynamic and relationships between the characters the series has, that isn't really captured in any other Anderson series except possibly Joe 90. The wit that often arises. The attention to detail, eg: black oily streaks on T4, a craft that could have easilly been designed spotless, as after all, it does spent most of it's time under water, so how could it get dirty. The defects in paintwork and body on T2 showing the craft has needed the odd patch up here and there. It would have been so easy to make these craft spotless and new looking, but they weren't, which I applaud. and the overall lavishness of the production, the big screen on the small screen look, that again wasn't really captured anywhere else. Like I say.All these details haven't really registered on me the way they did this time. Is it my age? The fact that I'm now watching through eyes that have been active for nearly fifty years? Perhaps with age has come a deeper more mature appreciation. I really don't know, because when I watch the Anderson programs I'm a child again, and I wouldn't want it any other way. So I don't honestly know why they're having a different effect on me with this latest viewing. It is the first time I've ever watched everything in one continuous run, (A continuous run that ended far too soon) so it could be that I suppose. Perhaps I'll never know. You're all kindered spirits, so your views if you have any will be read with keen interest.

[oshvision]

Unfortunalty, times had moved on and Lew tried to get ATV into america, as the budget was low in the uk, he wanted more finance, ATV movies took on big time, hence the 2 TV-movie versions of thunderbirds, SPACE 1999- destination moonbase alpha and UFO, look at how many times they re-used the same chracters in series 2 of thunderbirds!!!

[oshvision]

I have done some more investigation and found out that the TV 21st century comic story "Tracey Island Exposed" was going to be one of the last episodes in series 2- hence the airliner DT19 being built for the 2nd episode in Captain Scarlet- this would have been used for episode 33, 34 or 35?? of Thunderbirds- if they were made! and werent cancelled, perhaps some uncut footage exists deep in the ITV archives of the incomplete eps? remeber they did manage to make the last "clips" epsisode of Stingray; "the Reunion party" in late 2008, using unseen footage of troy, phones, shore, the commander, marina and atlanta, watching cine-clips before going out for a meal! this was also (what i beleve) was also used for early adverisement feature for the Cine versions made by Arrow Films for home cine viewing back in the '60's.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:Mn2hxQGR1IBHqM:http://www.tvcentury21.com/marc/images/cs-models/dt19.jpg&t=1

See this site; http://www.peterice.com/8mmfilms.htm

[Steve Gerard]

I have done some more investigation and found out that the TV 21st century comic story "Tracey Island Exposed" was going to be one of the last episodes in series 2- hence the airliner DT19 being built for the 2nd episode in Captain Scarlet- this would have been used for episode 33, 34 or 35?? of Thunderbirds...

It does sound extremely interesting.

[Achilles Messenger]

I have done some more investigation and found out that the TV 21st century comic story "Tracey Island Exposed" was going to be one of the last episodes in series 2- hence the airliner DT19 being built for the 2nd episode in Captain Scarlet- this would have been used for episode 33, 34 or 35?? of Thunderbirds.

Would you please mind sharing how you discovered this? Very interesting

[Bladez636]

I have done some more investigation and found out that the TV 21st century comic story "Tracey Island Exposed" was going to be one of the last episodes in series 2- hence the airliner DT19 being built for the 2nd episode in Captain Scarlet- this would have been used for episode 33, 34 or 35?? of Thunderbirds- if they were made! and werent cancelled, perhaps some uncut footage exists deep in the ITV archives of the incomplete eps?

Hmm that really is interesting, Delta Tango 19 really looked more or less like one of the oversized craft that would appear in Thunderbirds than one for Captain Scarlet. But thats how I see it anyhow. It would be interesting as then perhaps there would be another tie-in with Thunderbirds like the Zero-X thing in the first ep

Ya know, to me it seems like all my favorite shows end up being cancelled before their time. My favorite show Invader Zim was cancelled similarly, interestingly to me anyhow, like Thunderbirds it too ended with a Christmas episode.

[roose1982]

Would you please mind sharing how you discovered this? Very interesting

There may be some truth behind this - I've seen a behind the scenes shot of Thunderbird 2 on the launch ramp, with the DT19 model resting beside it.

As far as I know, there would not have been any cross over between filming of Thunderbirds series 2 or the feature film TBAG, and Captain Scarlet - certainly not whilst they were filming episode 2?

Having said that, i know later in the production schedule for Captain Scarlet they began work on TB6 (I think)?

I'll see if i can find the photo and post here

[Achilles Messenger]

There may be some truth behind this - I've seen a behind the scenes shot of Thunderbird 2 on the launch ramp, with the DT19 model resting beside it.

As far as I know, there would not have been any cross over between filming of Thunderbirds series 2 or the feature film TBAG, and Captain Scarlet - certainly not whilst they were filming episode 2?

Having said that, i know later in the production schedule for Captain Scarlet they began work on TB6 (I think)?

I'll see if i can find the photo and post here

Possible, and I always preferred the argument of Thunderbirds being stopped short at 6 episodes in the second series rather than the production crew knowing that series 2 would always be 6 episodes.

But the trouble is to believe the comment above about the types of stories that'd be used if they'd got past episode 6 and DT19 model being made for that, I'd need to know more.

The pic I believe you're on about Roose is attached.

[air terrainean]

Would you please mind sharing how you discovered this? Very interesting

I'd be very interested to know as well !

To give some production background - As The first 26 episodes of Thunderbirds were being completed in early 1966 Lew Grade announced that he had failed to sell the series to an American network as planned. The company had already commited itself to producing a Thunderbirds feature film, but had also anticipated Thunderbirds continuing.

Some work would probably have been done to prepare more scripts in advance, but it is unclear whether more than the eventual six storylines may have been considered. The new puppets for Captain Scarlet were developed during the period Lord Parker's 'Oliday was being filmed, as John Brown's first realistically proportioned puppet prototype can be seen in pictures with the 'Marie Antoinette' costumed Lady Penelope.

Winged Assassin, which featured the DT19 aircraft would have been filmed in early 1967, and the TV21 story it featured in was published in issues 125-129, during the summer of 1967. The model shot in AM's post may have been prepared as a possible cover for TV21, or for artists reference some time earlier. It's not a very realistic looking photograph, so if it was originally intended for publication Alan Fennell may have decided against using it.

The comic strip storyline was most probably written by Alan Fennell, so he may have developed it as a TV episode suggestion. Whether it might have been actively considered for the series is an interesting question. It would certainly have been pretty dramatic !

[oshvision]

Possible, and I always preferred the argument of Thunderbirds being stopped short at 6 episodes in the second series rather than the production crew knowing that series 2 would always be 6 episodes.

But the trouble is to believe the comment above about the types of stories that'd be used if they'd got past episode 6 and DT19 model being made for that, I'd need to know more.

The pic I believe you're on about Roose is attached.

http://www.fanderson.org.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=525&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1282034148

Does anyone have a larger version of this image?

[Technodelic]

Possible, and I always preferred the argument of Thunderbirds being stopped short at 6 episodes in the second series rather than the production crew knowing that series 2 would always be 6 episodes.

But the trouble is to believe the comment above about the types of stories that'd be used if they'd got past episode 6 and DT19 model being made for that, I'd need to know more.

The pic I believe you're on about Roose is attached.

And here is a bigger version:

http://www.technodelic.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ExposedPhoto.jpg

But at the same time, I would like to say 'absolute twaddle' to the theory about the photo being part of a proposed episode. Doug Luke, who was the company photographer, and Roger Perry, the art director at Century 21 Publishing, set up a great many shots for strips - only a fraction of which were used. Anyone involved in a photographic shoot will know you take many more than are needed, to cover all eventualities. Special set-ups for non-episodic material include Thunderbird 1 with the Firefly, the Venusian monsters, the volcano (also used for the novel 'Ring of Fire'), the Viewmaster story, and the behind-the-scenes filming seen in the colour short known as 'The Making of Thunderbirds'. This is equally evident during the Captain Scarlet era, when Century 21 Publishing was at its height. Does anyone here believe the MSV featured in several more mooted but abandoned episodes? No, of course not..

What I do not doubt is that a lot of publicity and supporting photos, beginning with things like the Sidewinder/Jungle Cat & Fireflash, were taken especially for TV Century 21, and later Lady Penelope - both Doug Luke and Roger Perry would take them between filming and, sometimes with the help of the film crew, devise these special set-ups. Later on, when the Thunderbirds models were still available (during or after Thunderbird 6 probably) but no actual sets, they experimented with back projection - Thunderbird 1 against a slide of Tracy Island, and Thunderbird 2 over London, to name a couple of examples.

So while I would happily apologise if anyone were to pull out some hard evidence about these proposed but abandoned episodes of Thunderbirds, I do not think this was ever the case. And also while I love a bit of speculation and 'what if', I don't think it does the reputation of Fanderson a great deal of good to drift back into the days of the 1970s and even early 1980s, and stand up bits of wish fulfillment as fact...

Let's keep it in perspective, guys. :p

[Hiram K Hackenbacker]

So while I would happily apologise if anyone were to pull out some hard evidence about these proposed but abandoned episodes of Thunderbirds, I do not think this was ever the case. And also while I love a bit of speculation and 'what if', I don't think it does the reputation of Fanderson a great deal of good to drift back into the days of the 1970s and even early 1980s, and stand up bits of wish fulfillment as fact...

Let's keep it in perspective, guys. :p

Speaking of perspective, there is literally no camera angle in the world that could make that scene look realistic. The models are far too out of scale with each other. I know they don't have to be the same scale, or even particularly close to make a shot work, but in this instance I can't see any angle making the scenario convincing. You'll always be able to tell that DT19 is FAR too small in comparison with TB2 and the Island door

[Technodelic]

Speaking of perspective, there is literally no camera angle in the world that could make that scene look realistic. The models are far too out of scale with each other. I know they don't have to be the same scale, or even particularly close to make a shot work, but in this instance I can't see any angle making the scenario convincing. You'll always be able to tell that DT19 is FAR too small in comparison with TB2 and the Island door

Actually, assuming this was just a set-up test shot not intended to be used, or cropped quite tightly so the wooden ground and lack of internal hangar detail were not so evident, the best angle would have been taken from the lower left, up past Thunderbird 2 with the flames and DT19 behind it, and some cliffs and (hopefully) a sky backdrop as background.

But that is just speculation. ;)

[Technodelic]

I have done some more investigation and found out that the TV 21st century comic story "Tracey Island Exposed" was going to be one of the last episodes in series 2- hence the airliner DT19 being built for the 2nd episode in Captain Scarlet- this would have been used for episode 33, 34 or 35?? of Thunderbirds- if they were made! and werent cancelled, perhaps some uncut footage exists deep in the ITV archives of the incomplete eps?

If that 'investigation' was just reading this page:

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=11721747151&topic=5939

- and the post by Peter O'Shea in particular...

:rolleyes:

Thank goodness Stephen La Rivière shines a little sanity - and proper research - on it all at the end...

:cool:

[Achilles Messenger]

If that 'investigation' was just reading this page:

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=11721747151&topic=5939

- and the post by Peter O'Shea in particular...

:rolleyes:

Thank goodness Stephen La Rivière
shines a little sanity - and proper research - on it all at the end...

:cool:

And there was I hoping oshvision might have discovered something groundbreaking...hence asking for the explanation

I think it's clear to anyone viewing the pic attached above that it's a publicity shot... well that's how I've always viewed it anyway.

...and with regards to keeping things in perspective, like I said above...I, like most would only believe it with concrete evidence!! :)

[Cheater_07]

Good topic!

It's one of my biggest wishes that someday a tape with lost Thunderbirds episodes is found and I think it's the wish of many of us.

I can't say anything about wether more episodes were planned or not, but isn't it possible to speak with the people who were involved at the time? They could also tell us once and for all that we should stop dreaming haha!

About the photos mentioned earlier. The viewmaster story, venusian monsters, volcano etc. Can I find them anywhere online or could you please post some? Don't think I have seen them all. It's always cool to see some alternate sets and set-ups.

[Hiram K Hackenbacker]

Good topic!

It's one of my biggest wishes that someday a tape with lost Thunderbirds episodes is found and I think it's the wish of many of us.

Although a nice thought, it's virtually impossible that it will happen.

However, it is NOT unrealistic to think that new episodes could be made in the same manner by dedicated artists, prop builders, sound alikes etc. I'm not saying it will ever happen, but it's not outside the limits of physical possibility.

[Technodelic]

I can't say anything about wether more episodes were planned or not, but isn't it possible to speak with the people who were involved at the time? They could also tell us once and for all that we should stop dreaming haha!

Haven't Fanderson been interviewing Gerry Anderson, and his cast and drew for the last thirty odd years or something? I'm sure if there was even a hint of truth regarding incomplete or abandoned episodes for a continuing second season of Thunderbirds, at least one - not least Gerry himself - would have piped up about it by now...

:rolleyes:

Add to that the exhaustive from-the-ground-up research Stephen La Riviere did for his book 'Filmed in Supermarionation', and you get 2 + 2 = a big fat zero regarding the matter.

End of.

:p

Now if someone wants to open a thread about how the series may have continued (or any of the other series, had they gone on)... hey, I'm all up for a bit of fun there!

:D

[oshvision]

I was only speculating that perhaps further episodes were concidered after Give or Take A Million, and perhaps Tracy Island Exposed was concidered?, there are many ideal comic strips verisons, such as that story with the volcano and the one with the big red eye thing which featured in th 1992 comic books, also, I am Mr Oshea by the way.

http://stage.scifi.co.uk/shows/galleries/assets_c/2009/03/Thunderbirds_6-thumb-540xauto-4711.jpg
Operation Volcano?

This discussion has been quite interesting!

Check out this site for info on the comics; http://www.technodelic.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Upload05/Thunderbirds03.htm

[oshvision]

Good topic!

It's one of my biggest wishes that someday a tape with lost Thunderbirds episodes is found and I think it's the wish of many of us.

I can't say anything about wether more episodes were planned or not, but isn't it possible to speak with the people who were involved at the time? They could also tell us once and for all that we should stop dreaming haha!

About the photos mentioned earlier. The viewmaster story, venusian monsters, volcano etc. Can I find them anywhere online or could you please post some? Don't think I have seen them all. It's always cool to see some alternate sets and set-ups.

Some pics on the Sci-fi site;

http://stage.scifi.co.uk/shows/thunderbirds/

[john61]

Attention Technodelic. That's how this thread began. Speculating what may have been if Thunderbirds continued. I posed the question a few weeks ago. It's something I've wondered about off and on over the years, and have had many an idea or two about episodes and story lines that might have been. I've listed my ideas in previous threads and posts.

[Technodelic]

I was only speculating that perhaps further episodes were concidered after Give or Take A Million, and perhaps Tracy Island Exposed was concidered?, there are many ideal comic strips verisons, such as that story with the volcano and the one with the big red eye thing which featured in th 1992 comic books, also, I am Mr Oshea by the way.

So let me get this straight... your previous post: "I have done some more investigation and found out that the TV 21st century comic story "Tracey Island Exposed" was going to be one of the last episodes in series 2- hence the airliner DT19 being built for the 2nd episode in Captain Scarlet- this would have been used for episode 33, 34 or 35?? of Thunderbirds- if they were made! and werent cancelled, perhaps some uncut footage exists deep in the ITV archives of the incomplete eps?" and your 2nd season info on Facebook: "Tracy Island Exposed (some of which was actually shot before the series was cut -this footage of the D19 airliner was re-budged as a comic cover and the model used in the first pilot epsode of Captain Scarlet!" were just speculations? Because that's not how they come over...

So what was this investigating you did then, please?

Perhaps, and I stress that with a very big capital 'P', some ideas which Alan Fennell had for scripts for more Thunderbirds episodes, did get fleshed out in a way - unlimited by budget - for 'TV Century 21'. After all, he was the only person to work comprehensively on both. I even made the statement in part one of the strip guide (http://www.technodelic.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Upload01/Thunderbirds01.htm): "...Atlantic Tunnel is a classic, almost a lost episode of the series itself. The long-awaited introduction of the Hood is no disappointment, and the longer than usual length gives it epic scope. The Thunderbirds series always aimed high, and this is the format writ large beyond the confines of any budget." but at no time did I ever believe it was once a TV script. And still don't.

But writers rehash ideas a number of times, and Fennell's fascination with the Sun showed itself up earlier in a Fireball XL5 annual story and 'TV Comic' strip (http://www.technodelic.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Upload03/FireballXL5Pt02.htm - see Story Sixteen) and manifest itself in both the episode 'Sunprobe' and the strip 'Solar Danger'. So there was always going to be a creative bleeding between the two media, unlike other series or tie-ins where it was rare for a TV writer/creator to be directly involved in any merchandise - Doctor Who & Buffy being the only other examples that spring immediately to mind.

But still no to actual episodes being 'lost' or 'abandoned'. :p

[Technodelic]

Attention Technodelic. That's how this thread began. Speculating what may have been if Thunderbirds continued. I posed the question a few weeks ago. It's something I've wondered about off and on over the years, and have had many an idea or two about episodes and story lines that might have been. I've listed my ideas in previous threads and posts.

Admittedly, and I have a few ideas for stories as well... :p

[Derek Eaton]

As a moderator on this forum I am really pleased to see how this thread has developed - we have had ideas and discussion with good challenges.

There was a really good point about the MSV a few posts ago that is consistently seen in images that are not in any of the episodes. This led me to think how few photographs are in the early TV21 annuals compared to the latter when they had a studio photographer.

[Achilles Messenger]

I guess until some thorough research digs up something previously unknown, the many publicity shots are not a bad way to think about how stories might have developed...

...attached are some pics to get those cogs working...:rolleyes:;):p:confused:

[Chrisof]

I guess until some thorough research digs up something previously unknown, the many publicity shots are not a bad way to think about how stories might have developed...



Havn't seen those ones before, cheers for posting them :)

Not totally sure how i feel about mixing Aliens and Thunderbirds, just doesn't feel right to me. That said i dig the Rock snakes and a rampaging Dragon thing sounds cool.

[Troy Tempest]

Barry Gray labelled his manuscripts for the final set of episodes 'Thunderbirds - Series of 6'. Thunderbirds wasn't cancelled halfway through the second series - it was always going to be that long.

[Technodelic]

I am Mr Oshea by the way.

No relation to Rick, one assumes? ;)

I am Mr Oshea by the way.

http://stage.scifi.co.uk/shows/galleries/assets_c/2009/03/Thunderbirds_6-thumb-540xauto-4711.jpg
Operation Volcano?

More like 'Mission Smoking Chilli Sauce', if you ask me... :p

[Technodelic]

Barry Gray labelled his manuscripts for the final set of episodes 'Thunderbirds - Series of 6'. Thunderbirds wasn't cancelled halfway through the second series - it was always going to be that long.

And a round of applause to someone properly in the know.

More power to the Tempests, say I! :)

PS - is that Ralph, by any chance?

[Troy Tempest]

And a round of applause to someone properly in the know.

More power to the Tempests, say I! :)

PS - is that Ralph, by any chance?

Of course, maybe I misread it and it said 'Thunderbirds - Series Six' meaning that there's four series missing :p

[Technodelic]

Of course, maybe I misread it and it said 'Thunderbirds - Series Six' meaning that there's four series missing :p

........... :p ;) :D

[roose1982]

Also, I'd like to share with you an extract from a newspaper article printed in The Times in Feb 1966:-

"The 26 episodes of Thunderbirds are costing £1m to make; each gripping instalment takes about £40,000...

They are about to make a full-length feature film of the Thunderbirds on a budget of £200,000 and ATV have just ordered another six episodes of the television serial in addition to the 26 already running."

This also explains why the sets were different in the last 6 episodes, as they were using the versions that had been updated for the feature film. You'll notice the interior of TB4 remains unchanged, probably because it doenst feature in TAG.

Ross

[capt_ochre]

Exactly Ross. Which is why the sets were redesigned again for Thunderbird Six - the sets would have been destroyed after the final six episodes.

[Technodelic]

Exactly Ross. Which is why the sets were redesigned again for Thunderbird Six - the sets would have been destroyed after the final six episodes.

It wouldn't have made sense to just destroy them... they may have been stored and revamped for other productions.

[oshvision]

it was mear speculation if there was any missing episodes,

sorry if the the info was miss leading,

i put 2 + 2 togther an thought that if they were moving to Captain Scarlet anyway, would some of the early models from the Captin Scarlet episdoes been used for proposed series 2 thunderbird episodes that were not made,

just an idea, anyways, have you heard that there re-making thunderbirds, i woul really like to see some of these "speculation" episodes put into production :)

[Technodelic]

anyways, have you heard that there re-making thunderbirds, i woul really like to see some of these "speculation" episodes put into production :)

http://joyfullygrowingingrace.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/smi202.gif?w=95&h=95

[Colonel Foster]

That's Very funny.....!!